2021 M-Enabling Day1 3:10PM: Panel – Web Site Overlays: Risk or Opportunity?

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We have another exciting discussion.

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There are few areas of technologies that have
generated as much publicity and I should say

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difficult discussions in the profession than
the website accessibility.

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We wanted during this summit to address this
question head on and make sure that we can

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have a good open discussion of those issues.

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So in order to have most effective and informed
panel, we asked Mike Paciello, expert in the

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and we recognized and joining him will be
Anil Lewis, Executive Director of the NFB,

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and Dominic Varacalli, chief operating officer
of AudioEye.

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I would ask them now to join the stage and
to start the panel.

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And I remind you again we will temporarily
use the poll application for polling questions

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during the discussion.

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Then the polling system will revert to the
previous question which was the input for

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innovation ideas that Kevin announced before
lunch.

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So with that, please welcome help me welcome
the next panel with Mike, Anil, and Dominic.

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I guess this is a sit down situation here.

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I prefer to stand.

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Being Italian.

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Moving arms and moving hands.

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I want to thank everyone for attending the
session, probably several of you have been

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anticipating it and thank you Accel for smoothing
the waters for our situation.

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You see words in the abstract about debate.

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Just the title of this thing being called
Hyde Park initiates the notion of perhaps

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some antipathy and acrimony.

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But that's not that's not our purpose today.

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We have Anil Lewis and Dominic Varacalli from
AudioEye.

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And we plan to have a rich and fulfilling
discussion.

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We have a little bit of a different agenda
and venue for today so let me go over that

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real quickly.

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I'm going to start with a three minute intro
which have started.

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Then we will ask Dominic to speak from the
perspective of the overlay organizations and

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his thoughts on that.

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And then we will have Anil speak to the situation
from individuals with disabilities, particularly

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those with visual disabilities.

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We will allow five minute period for questions,
Q&A.

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You will note that on your tables, I think
it's been explained a couple of times today

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you can post questions using the QR code that's
on your table as well as participate in the

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concluding aspect of this which is basically
a two minute opportunity to do some polling.

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We will do one question at a time.

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We have four questions right now that we have
cooperated with, the four or three of us have

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talked about along with Accel and others.

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So we will be looking at that.

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Let me give you a background on this discussion
because it is interesting.

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It's not the first in the timeline of emerging
technologies that have fundamentally disrupted,

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never mind the lives of individuals with disabilities
and the professionals in this field, but just

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the whole technology field as a whole.

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I can remember several years ago back in the
early 90s a runningback in the hall ways,

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the Marriott hotel for those of you that go
back that far, because Microsoft was about

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to announce the introduction of their screen
reader through an OS and their screen magnifier.

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So you can imagine all of the AT vendors at
that time this was their livelihood and people

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there was a big ruckus about press releases
and there was follow on arguments about what

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was going on.

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IBM followed up with their own so what you
had was the OSs, the operating system manufacturers

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and vendors.

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What turned out to be for a few years of,
aggressive opinions about where things should

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or should not be.

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Who had the right to do what or not.

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Then you go ahead in time and in the early
2000s and late 90s, we introduced to the first

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automated validation tools.

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We had companies like high soft or SSP Bart
and Tim is with a level access.

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Renamed.

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We also had DQ.

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Who had developed these automated validation
services and we were sure there is no way

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they no way they could work.

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They will fail.

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And here we are now some 21 years later and
we are talking about the same thing having

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the same kind of reactions over overlays.

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The question is, what do we do?

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That's the discussion that we are going to
have today.

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And we are going to put that in the context
of Hyde Park so folks will stand up in a virtual

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way and put their stakes in the ground and
let's see how it rolls out.

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Our first speaker today again is Dominic Varacalli.

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Dominic is with AudioEye.

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Take the stage.

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Thank you, Mike.

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I appreciate the introductions.

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Let me start by saying that I believe the
term overlay has become muddied in a conversation

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that is truly about the place of automation
in our industry and ethics of some companies

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operating in this space.

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When I use the term overlay I will refer to
overlays as a piece of technology for applying

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for remediations whether automatically or
manually generated, delivered in realtime

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to a user's browser as well as a toolbar for
applying visual changes.

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Vastly different the importance of each of
those but when I speak of that solution I

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will speak of the whole solution.

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There are three key areas I will touch on.

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First is the problem in the overlay or the
automation, second, is the shortcomings of

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the solution and lastly ethics of operating
in this space.

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First, let me ask a question.

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If the experience to the end user is the same,
why should it matter how it's delivered?

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Some might argue that if hunting on the responsibility
of the site owner to bring that accessibility

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and knowledge in house.

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Companies are doing this every day in hundreds
of different ways whether that's out sourcing,

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common problems for things like search or
chat or others.

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And second, developers even at the source
code level are outsourcing by bringing in

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their party libraries.

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If I'm building a date picker on a calendar
site, why would I build that myself when on

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MPM there is over 2500 results with a quick
search.

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To assume even at the source level developers
have access and knowledge of all of the code

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they are writing is just denying the realities
of common web development practices today.

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We can't forget every one of us is always
adding content to the web every day and millions

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of websites are created by those who aren't
writing code.

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This for me clarifies that the problem must
be some overlays haven't delivered the same

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experience as other solutions have.

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So let's turn them to the short comings.

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When it comes to the shortcoming there is
both automation and the breadth of the overall

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experience.

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In terms of the automation, we all had the
experience our phones auto correcting something

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crazily or Siri coming back and saying here
is what I found on the web for that which

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is rarely what we ever ask for.

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But I can walk into my house today and say
command out loud and lights will turn on,

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robot vacuum can sweep the floor and some
people have cars that can start to drive themselves.

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All of this relies on imperfect automation
and yet we continue to invest as a society

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in this because it makes our lives easier.

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As mike mentioned.

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In our own industry it was once frowned upon
to use automated testing.

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Today it's a corner stone and even in industry
peer recently said over 57% of issues could

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be tested for automatically.

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Let's set that aside.

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What would it take for any solution to be
successful?

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Every solution must be ongoing because the
web is constantly changing.

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Every solution must also handle the variety
of site creators because not everyone will

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have source code access.

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And lastly, every solution must be able to
scale to the entire size of the internet.

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All viewings have their shortcomings.

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Some may be costly or hard to implement ongoing
especially for small businesses.

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Others focus on one type of site creator versus
another.

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And lastly, to scale to the entire size of
the internet some solutions will take years

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to train and embed enough people and companies
across the entire world.

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Overlays and automations have their shortcomings
as well and can make significant end roads

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in these areas.

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The question is, should we throw out automation
all together or continue to invest?

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On the breadth of the solution I will touch
on this quickly but overlays only solve web

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accessibility.

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They don't handle document, audio or video.

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There are plenty of vendors in that exhibit
hall today that focus on one of those niches

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so the argument I have heard because overlays
own solve one problem, means they are not

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part of the solution at all.

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Is a false comparison.

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Only yeah, the overlay company claims that
it can solve all of these problems when it

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cannot is there is an issue.

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That will turn me to the last point around
ethically operating in this space.

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Companies must deliver on three key promises.

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To un, one, be transparent what they can and
not remediate in terms of media types.

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And ideally offer their customers solutions.

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Second, provide end users with the way to
provide feedback and when there is an issue

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to remediate it quickly.

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And lastly, to provide manual audits and manual
remediations because we know that automation

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has its shortcomings and will fail and when
it does we need the fallbacks.

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Ideally companies should offer transparent
reporting so that the customers can choose

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to make progress at source over time or they
can continue to outsource for remediation.

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This is a big problem and digital accessibility
is hard.

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However, it will take a variety of solutions
we've seen automation make progress across

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industries including our own and that's why
I believe it is worth continuing the investment

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to overcome the shortcomings.

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Thank you.

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Excellent.

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Thank you, Dominic.

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Appreciate that.

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I should have given I think I mentioned Dominic
you are the COO at AudioEye.

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So same thing to out of respect for our fellow,
Anil Lewis is the Executive Director at the

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it doesn't use it's just Jernigan institute
national federation of the blind.

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Anil can we have your thoughts?

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Sure.

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First I appreciate the opportunity.

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I love putting this together.

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I think this is when it gives us as a consumer
organization and an opportunity to speak to

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individuals who are invested in innovating
technology in a way that will create a way

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for us to better live, work and play in our
communities.

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On behalf NFB, thank you.

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I want to state from the beginning that this
is not an either/or debate.

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The national federation of the blind supports
innovative technology.

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We want to make sure that we as blind individuals
to capitalize on whatever is out there that

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mainstream technology that everybody is using
we want to be able to exploit it as well.

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Our focus is to make sure that as that progresses,
that accessibility has taken into consideration

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so we will have the ability.

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So to the question of whether we should or
not, I don't think that's the question.

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It's not if we should, it's how we should.

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I think that's important.

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I want to differentiate before the overlay
discussion in general.

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You may have seen a lot of social media traffic
what we have been doing but I want you to

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recognize that it's been happening in to silos.

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One is we as a civil rights organization fundamentally
we will always fight for the rights of blind

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people and make sure the messaging this out
there is not done in a way that limits opportunities

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and definitely does not take us backwards
from the progress we have made.

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But most importantly, I think most people
recognize that we are better partners than

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most people think.

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Yeah, we sue people.

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That's what we do.

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But that's not what we default to.

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That's too expensive.

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We sue people and we are good at it and are
proud of that fact but we can't sue everybody.

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Many of you in this room already know we are
better partners than legal adversaries.

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And that's definitely what we prefer to do.

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In this whole overlay discussion we have been
working to make good partnerships.

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And to make sure in messaging all of this
and working toward capitalizing on this innovative

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technology because we believe in artificial
intelligence in a real way that overlays are

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not presented as an alternative to inculturating
accessibility.

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We believe that the inculturation of accessibility
throughout the whole development, design,

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implementation and process is key.

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Because when you do that, it's baked in.

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There is no third party.

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As my friend Dan Goldstein says, it's not
like building that 20 story sky scraper and

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looking back at this wonderful thing you created
and saying, hmm, we should put in an elevator.

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No, that's backwards logic.

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We do recognize that overlays currently are
an option.

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We want to support the development of that
option to the place where it could potentially

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become an alternative.

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The key is we have to make sure that people
are well informed so they can make an informed

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choice.

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Not fall subject to the misrepresentation
of $49 and your website is WCAG compliant.

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One WCAG compliance.

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One WCAG compliant.

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Fighting against separate spaces for us to
exist.

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You all remember the days when it was a website
and accessible website.

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No, we aren't going backwards.

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We aren't going to do that.

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So in developing this, we have to make sure
that whatever is created is created in a mainstream

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environment that doesn't separate us off to
end up getting second hand support, second

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hand participation and second hand access
to information.

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First and foremost and all of this as we progress,
the solution must work.

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It's one thing to say it and we have and I
don't want to make this contentious and we

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have done research and seen there is an inaccessible
website and implementation of an overlay and

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then it's still inaccessible website.

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But the people who are making these decisions
to get the overlay, don't know.

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They are just falling subject to the marketing.

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It must work.

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And that's when we will make sure it works.

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Let me to make this more probably for you
guys.

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I just took down the notes from Dominic.

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And I agree with the three points but I would
like to just elaborate a little bit.

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Transparency, absolutely.

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That's what we are fighting for, transparency
in messaging and the problems with the overlays

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and the solutions because then we can work
together with you, right?

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To help find those solutions to those problems.

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Providing a way for users to get feedback.

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I like that.

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That's important.

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But I would enhance that to say that people
with disabilities need to be involved throughout

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the full development design process.

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Not just at the end to give you feedback.

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That means you get to know us as litigators
not partners.

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So reach out to us.

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We want to be active in this process and we
have the skills and expertise and knowledge

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to do it.

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Then absolutely, the manual audit and the
manual participation and the manual testing

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is key.

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Until what time we get to the place where
it is more seamless and automated process

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but we aren't there.

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We have to be honest about that.

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I appreciate the opportunity and more so I
appreciate the panel prior to us because now

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I know this was seen as a weapon and when
I came back to Italy they took me to that

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little room and made me get undressed.

252
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Thank you.

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Gives a whole new connotation for a white
cane.

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All right.

255
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Very good.

256
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Yeah, thank you.

257
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Excellent.

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So I heard three words, common threads between
the two of you.

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I heard the importance of innovation in technology.

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I also heard the importance of collaboration
between individuals with disabilities in the

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technology companies regardless of whether
it's overlays or otherwise.

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And I also heard the importance of transparency.

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That we have to be transparent about what
it is we are creating.

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What it's capable of doing and perhaps because
of this convention or this event, how critical

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and crucial it is that technologies really
serve the people that we claim that we are

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designing to help and we are developing to
help.

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Individuals with disabilities.

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That's really what's critical to both of you
to your respective organizations and to everyone

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that is here in the audience and I have no
doubt about that.

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We only have a couple of minutes left here
and I know we are running over a little bit

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but we would like to entertain a couple of
questions, I think, if we have them.

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Nicholas, do we have them?

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And while we are doing the Q&A, then following
that we will take maybe a couple of questions

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and then start the poll.

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Shall I go?

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Yeah, please.

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So let's entertain the questions please,
first.

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Albert from my blind spot.

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Dominic, I have the utmost respect for your
organization.

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00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:38,010
Have watched it over the past number of years
of however, again to the point that Anil spoke

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of, the transparency and I'm not sure if this
is something we can point to audio but the

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overlay companies tend to misrepresent their
usability and functionality and equate it

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to the minimal accessibility compliance issues.

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Where does audio eye stand on understanding
that overlays are a temporary fix to a much

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more complex solution that requires manual
implementation of code at the core of a platform

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so solutions like overlays aren't the norm?

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Yes, let me address that.

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So we do believe that it's a journey and we
work with people in the disability community.

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00:20:24,610 --> 00:20:29,590
That was one of the biggest initiatives since
I have been there in the past year or so bringing

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00:20:29,590 --> 00:20:33,870
people with disabilities and testing with
us every week.

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00:20:33,870 --> 00:20:35,750
So we bring that feedback in.

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When we have an overlay solution with the
company, we make sure we are doing a few things.

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One, educating them and their employees.

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And then long term helping them down the journey
to implement fixes.

295
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We usually do that first with our technology
through the overlay.

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00:20:52,370 --> 00:20:57,020
There is plenty of companies we work through
detail level of reporting, giving them feedback

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on what are the most important issues they
can fix and we understand the reality that

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a software development life cycle has multiple
priorities that are pulling in.

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One product manager wants to build this new
signee feature and another person is building

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these accessibility feature.

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00:21:13,820 --> 00:21:19,930
We are there to help them to to prioritize
and if they don't get to it in the short term

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00:21:19,930 --> 00:21:22,230
we covered it in the overlay.

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00:21:22,230 --> 00:21:26,580
We believe it's a whole partnership for the
companies and the overlay is one piece of

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it.

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00:21:27,580 --> 00:21:31,600
Our reporting and manual audits help them
long term.

306
00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:32,750
Thank you, Dominic.

307
00:21:32,750 --> 00:21:38,200
How about can we have Susan over here on the
left.

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00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:39,549
Microphone down here.

309
00:21:39,549 --> 00:21:40,960
Thank you.

310
00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:45,919
That was Albert from my blind spot.

311
00:21:45,919 --> 00:21:55,490
I just want to express my personal feeling
about this.

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00:21:55,490 --> 00:22:00,860
I look at overlays from a civil rights perspective.

313
00:22:00,860 --> 00:22:05,850
And when I hear overlays, I think the back
of the bus goes the same place as the front

314
00:22:05,850 --> 00:22:10,540
of the bus goes but I don't want to be rel
relegated there.

315
00:22:10,540 --> 00:22:12,590
Thank you, Susan.

316
00:22:12,590 --> 00:22:13,960
Appreciate that.

317
00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:17,409
And one more question then we can go on to
our poll.

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00:22:17,409 --> 00:22:22,230
Let's see if I can see hands up.

319
00:22:22,230 --> 00:22:24,649
No other hands up.

320
00:22:24,649 --> 00:22:25,649
Reserved opinion?

321
00:22:25,649 --> 00:22:30,230
You just don't want to voice yourself?

322
00:22:30,230 --> 00:22:31,230
Okay.

323
00:22:31,230 --> 00:22:33,500
I don't see any more hands.

324
00:22:33,500 --> 00:22:35,840
Why don't we start with the poll.

325
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:42,399
Nicholas, so the first question when asked
now, let me pres have the poll.

326
00:22:42,399 --> 00:22:47,029
The purpose of this poll is not to be divisive
in anyway.

327
00:22:47,029 --> 00:22:49,950
It's just kind of data collection, if you
will.

328
00:22:49,950 --> 00:22:55,370
Try to get some sense in how we feel and what
we think and what some of the issues are that

329
00:22:55,370 --> 00:23:02,279
are important to you and then use that as
a bridge, or a stepping stone to move into

330
00:23:02,279 --> 00:23:04,490
further discussions.

331
00:23:04,490 --> 00:23:07,210
So that's primarily the purpose of this.

332
00:23:07,210 --> 00:23:13,940
So let's put up the first question and I think
it's you or your own organization uses web

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00:23:13,940 --> 00:23:14,940
overlay technologies.

334
00:23:14,940 --> 00:23:17,890
Yes or no, is that the first one up there?

335
00:23:17,890 --> 00:23:22,289
If we all can take that and try to get an
idea.

336
00:23:22,289 --> 00:23:27,880
You or your organization use web overlay technologies.

337
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:45,320
About 30 seconds to respond.

338
00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,890
Let's try for the second question, Nicholas.

339
00:23:48,890 --> 00:23:57,620
The second question is can automation play
a role in accessible website.

340
00:23:57,620 --> 00:24:03,110
Can automation play a role in accessible website?

341
00:24:03,110 --> 00:24:13,480
Ask everyone to vote there.

342
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:25,320
If I'm going too fast let know

343
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:36,390
The third question do you believe overlays
can play a part in accessibility strategy.

344
00:24:36,390 --> 00:24:43,200
Do you believe overlays can play a part in
an accessibility strategy.

345
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:49,580
You heard Dominic and talked about the development
life cycle.

346
00:24:49,580 --> 00:25:01,880
It's part of that strategy.

347
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:08,919
Last question, you or your organization would
be interested in participating in an IAAP

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00:25:08,919 --> 00:25:15,580
advisory committee better understand overlay
technologies and what to expect or not expect

349
00:25:15,580 --> 00:25:16,580
from them.

350
00:25:16,580 --> 00:25:17,580
It's a little long.

351
00:25:17,580 --> 00:25:18,790
So I will re read it.

352
00:25:18,790 --> 00:25:25,840
You or your organization will be interested
in participating in an IAAP advisory committee

353
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:32,960
to better understand overlay technologies
and what to expect and not expect from them.

354
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:36,740
And that's the last of the poll questions.

355
00:25:36,740 --> 00:25:43,429
So I will give you a minute.

356
00:25:43,429 --> 00:25:51,190
Well, on behalf, I want to thank everyone
for being good listener and thank Dominic

357
00:25:51,190 --> 00:26:00,799
and Anil for participating and let's see if
we take it forward from here.

358
00:26:00,799 --> 00:26:05,809
Thank you very much all the panelists and
we will have a break for a half an hour and

359
00:26:05,809 --> 00:26:12,330
reconvene in both this room and next door
in salon 123 where we will have two different

360
00:26:12,330 --> 00:26:13,700
talks in parallel.

361
00:26:13,700 --> 00:26:15,009
Enjoy the break.